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Practice Circles Forums » Recent Posts http://practicecircles.com/home/forums/ Just another bbPress community en-US Thu, 29 Jul 2010 19:53:39 +0000 http://bbpress.org/?v=1.0.2 <![CDATA[Search]]> q http://practicecircles.com/home/forums/search.php practicinglove29 on "Is it possible to have a Karma Divorce with a Narcissist?" http://practicecircles.com/home/forums/topic.php?id=4#post-11 Fri, 11 Jun 2010 02:27:16 +0000 practicinglove29 11@http://practicecircles.com/home/forums/ I have the same questions myself! I am, by nature, someone who wantsd to "make everything better". This is generally the type of person a narcissist falls for in the first place. I feel very confused in dealing with my husband (We have been separated for 5 months.) For years I hoped for the best in him to consistently shine through, but was more often than not, greeted by My. Hyde instead of Dr. Jekyl. In a perfect world I would want to settle things honestly and between us, keeping our children's best interests at the forefront. The problem I keep encountering is that whenever I let my guard down, even a tiny bit, I get stomped! He's very methodical, twists things around and manipulates and bullies me if he senses that I am willing to be open to him. I don't want to become like him..fearful, deceptive, hostile and manipulative, but I am very worried that he snow the court and make ME look like the hostile or unstable one if I continue engaging in any kind of contact with him. On the other hand I still have that tiny bit of hope that he'll, at some point, see what he's doing to our children and to myself as well as what he is throwing away. So I end up flipping between being guarded and then trying to work things out in a loving way that leaves room for growth. It's so frustrating dealing with someone who truly seems unaware of the things they do and how reckless and pointless they are! Everything is so black and white to him. You're the villain or the victim, and there is no room for taking responsibility for the fact that it takes two to tango. boringal on "How do you get out?" http://practicecircles.com/home/forums/topic.php?id=5#post-10 Thu, 03 Jun 2010 00:51:29 +0000 boringal 10@http://practicecircles.com/home/forums/ I have tolerated this marriage for 19 years due to the kids and just can't do it any longer. Every effort to get him to help fix us failed over the years. Finally in December I gave him an ultimatium to change his behavior and actions or I was filing for divorce. It wasn't 2 weeks and he was back at it or trying to. So I informed him at the end of March I wanted a divorce. he agreed then acted as if nothing was said. A week later I confronted him again about a divorce and he agreed. Then I told him I had put my life on hold for 19 years while he hs been running around and I wasn't any longer and was going to start dating. He agreed. I went on one innocent date and 2 days later he had an ephiphany on life and decided he din't want a divorce and has completely changed (no drinking since April, no running around or out all night as before). I'm sorry but I'm not interested! It is way too late! I spent 19 years of raising our 6 kids and laying up until 3, 4 or 5 am wondering where he was and who he was with and how drunk he would be too many times! All I hear now is give him one more chance! I can't tell you how many chances I have given him already! I went and had the consult with the lawyer and even went & paid to have everything started but went back a week later and got a refund and put it on hold. I just can't take the hate, hostility, threats, etc! I only make around $30,000 per year and can't afford to move out. The house is too much for me to cover on my own too! I just had surgery and decided to let him think I am giving him his second chance to calm thingsdown until I heal. I don't love him and he is driving me crazy! he is so far up my butt and going so out of the way to change that the kids and I are going crazy! It is over kill and just too late! I am hoping he will calm down and start to understand why I am where I am and inderstand that we would both be happier apart. He confronted me about 4 years ago and said he didn't want to be married to me anymore. Every time I asked him how he felt about me over these last 6 years he kept saying he didn't know???? Now all of a sudden he is so in love with me????? Has anyone else been in this situation? I am so worried about the kids and of course he is threatening for primary custody w shared visitation. I am going to schedule counseling too so he understands how and why I am where I am and how I can't go back. Any thoughts? boringal on "Are Children Really Resilient?" http://practicecircles.com/home/forums/topic.php?id=2#post-9 Thu, 03 Jun 2010 00:34:39 +0000 boringal 9@http://practicecircles.com/home/forums/ I too have this same concern. Haven't started the divorce yet but worried. Have 6 kids. wheel61 on "Is it possible to have a Karma Divorce with a Narcissist?" http://practicecircles.com/home/forums/topic.php?id=4#post-8 Tue, 11 May 2010 13:18:09 +0000 wheel61 8@http://practicecircles.com/home/forums/ I've been struggling with this very question ever since I read Judge Lowrance's book. My former partner's ruthlessly clinging to the black letter of the law to demand the highest possible child support from me, even though she earns significantly more than I do and comes from a wealthy family who routinely provides her and our daughter with financial support. She's rudely dismissive of my efforts to co-parent our child, even though I relocated from an excellent job and a starkly lower cost of living in the midwest to be closer to our daughter on the East Coast. A first look at the outlines of our breakup might lead someone to describe me as the Initiator, and that my former partner's angry responses are the natural, expected outcome of being "left." But there are two sides to every break-up; suffice to say that my decision to end the relationship formalized what my ex-partner had begun by moving away to another state in the first place. Her own myopia (maybe it's narcissism? I hadn't thought of that angle) keeps her from admitting her shared responsibility in our break up. And that's a problem. Because her sense of self-righteousness--together with her standing as the primary custodial parent (a "right" I foolishly ceded to her not understanding the financial bind I'd place myself in)--enables her mean-spiritedness toward me. Her self-righteousness also justifies, in her mind, her "right" to claim as much money from me as the law allows. In this way, the "law" feeds her myopia because she can excuse her behavior by attributing it to "what the law says." The law therefore masks her self-absorbed aggression for what it really is. I share those details not to carp, but to be clear about the stakes involved in my effort to be "karmic" in my divorce process. Dealing with my former partner on a weekly basis has been incredibly emotionally draining. Moreover, I stand to lose a lot, financially speaking, if I don't stand up and fight back for my rights. So I have to stay alert, sharp, and aware in our dealings with one another, despite how taxing those encounters can be. And yet, I'm dealing with someone who, for a full year now, has been unrelentingly aggressive against me. What to do? Frankly, I wish Judge Lowrance had dealt with this hard case scenario more explicitly in her book. Alas, she didn't. So I'm cobbling my "practice" together as I go. Right now, three principles guide my action. First, I remind myself that how I end this relationship is as important to me as the fact of doing it. I don't want to perpetuate the unhealthy dynamics that led me to end the relationship in the first place. I try to use new, healthy behaviors when relating to my former partner. So, I push myself to act differently with her to avoid the bad patterns that structured our dynamic for so long. Sometimes my new behaviors provoke her ire. I tell myself that's OK, because our "old" habits got us into trouble in the first place. Second, beyond trying to "correct" old, bad relationship dynamics, I remind myself to act and make decisions with honesty and dignity. I don't want to stoop to the bad faith, self-absorbed tactics that my former partner and her attorney seem determined to follow. I need to know I'm doing right by myself and for my child--that I'm modeling for our daughter how to act with principle in difficult situations. She sees that, I believe. Of course her preference is that her parents never split at all(she also never wanted to move away, so she understands why I felt neglected and decided to "stay apart on my own," as she puts it). But she experiences us as loving her no matter what. That's worth my efforts to stay even-keeled throughout this process. Acting "karmically" creates the ground for my daughter's emotional safety. And it safeguards my personal integrity. Finally, though, I do have to look out for my best interests in this process. I'll be no good to myself or to my daughter if this divorce breaks me financially, let alone spiritually. So, I do fight back on the legal matters but I fight fair and honest. This means I don't tangle with my former partner over comparably "small stuff." Such as: irritating e-mails where she digs at me in some way, shape, or form; her egregious but not insufferable assertions of "rights" (e.g., insisting on selling our house immediately, claiming 50% of our house sale proceeds, but doing nothing at all to advance the sale process, leaving those details for me to handle alone); her resentment-filled, selective sharing of information when it comes to our daughter's schooling and social life. Instead, I save my energy for "big stuff" issues. Like the child support. Like the legal hassles about sharing the home mortgage costs. Like my visitation rights. I "chest bump" back on these kinds of issues. When I do, I don't feel guilty or hesitant at all, because I know that I've conducted myself civilly and fairly on every possible front, in every possible way. Standing up for my rights and well-being aren't uncivil, if I take those actions in good faith. That, to me, is what narcissists can't do: act in good faith. Narcissists don't take another's point of view into account when they make decisions or take actions. They act on their own behalf solely. Practically speaking, then, I can't change my former partner's ways or outlook. Reflecting on it, I realize that I'd hoped that by acting civilly toward her, she would've reacted to those cues that I still respected her and that she could, in turn, act civilly towards me. That's not happened. I'm trying to accept that I can't expect it to happen. That saddens me, deeply. But I can't waste time trying to change her into a state she doesn't want for herself. One final point: I do think that with self-absorbed types, the sooner you can resolve your legal issues the better. Get a structure in place (of visits, child support and/or alimony payments, other property/material divisions, etc) that allows the two of you to routinize your contacts. The structure can keep the self-absorption in check, I think. The disputes can function as an echo chamber or fun house mirror that indulges their tendency to focus on themselves--their needs, their wants, their hurts. I see the difference structure makes when I consider the effects of my child visitation and support agreements: the first is in place, not the second. I think my former partner's dragging out the support issues because the haggling over the law can let her act out against me for ending the relationship. If your former partner has the financial means to do so (which mine does), s/he can afford to extend that fight to your detriment. I've said enough. I hope this provides a useful frame for comparison. Thanks for raising this important question! freegal on "Is it possible to have a Karma Divorce with a Narcissist?" http://practicecircles.com/home/forums/topic.php?id=4#post-7 Sat, 01 May 2010 12:52:34 +0000 freegal 7@http://practicecircles.com/home/forums/ I am about to embark on settlement with my soon to be ex Narcissistic (as in Personality Disorder) husband. We were married fo 16 years and have three fabulous boys. So far we've basically had very little contact with one another over the last 10 months and only email logistics regarding the children. We both endured a difficult marriage for many years and i am emotionally resolved and, as Michele refers to in her book, the Initiator. I am not sure if anyone here has had the experience of divorcing a Narcissist but I am doing so for my own desire to live a better life. I wonder if it is possible to have a karmic divorce with a Narcissist? I would love anyone's experience. FreeGal wheel61 on "Why do Dads disappear?" http://practicecircles.com/home/forums/topic.php?id=3#post-6 Tue, 23 Mar 2010 10:01:56 +0000 wheel61 6@http://practicecircles.com/home/forums/ KW Mom-- Yours sounds like a difficult realization. If I may ask, since your children sound old enough to talk about this issue, do you? Can they articulate their feelings to you? Do they express a desire to re-connect with their father? If you could engineer the least-conflicted situation for that to occur, would you let it? It seems that with your post you're also looking for insights and experiences for how to understand the other parent's point of view--"why do dads disappear?" Let me share a bit of my own. I write from an unexpected angle on this matter. I'm in the midst of a "divorce" where my former partner's trying to minimize my contact with our daughter. Were it not for the fact that my daughter and I are already and extremely close, I'm sure my former partner wouldn't want me to have contact with our child at all. However, I'm not a "dad"; I'm another mom--my former partner and I are gay, and we have one daughter (birthed by my partner; legally adopted by me). So, I write understanding the "woman's" or mother's side of this tension. But as the non-custodial parent, I'm treated by the law as, effectively, a "dad," since the law tends to presume non-custodial parents are men. In short, I feel as if I can see both sides of the matter. So here's my insight, from a non-custodial parent's point of view. There have been times when I have wanted to pack my bags and head back to the hometown where my family once lived (I've relocated and sought out a job in the place where my former partner and daughter now reside, to be close to my daughter). The financial and emotional pressures placed on me by both the move and the state's divorce law have been so great I've felt like throwing up my hands and saying: "forget this. She left me. She doesn't want me around. She doesn't respect my role as a parent. The law gives me so few rights. Let me go back someplace where I'd have an easier time caring for myself." As much as I love my daughter, my dignity and well-being must count at some point, too; or else, what kind of role model would I be to her? And yet, the tensions between my former partner and me--together with the stringencies of divorce law--compromise my finances and integrity so much that I sometimes long to be in a space where my best adult self can rise to the surface and live modestly (financially speaking) but free. First of all, then, I imagine that Dads "disappear" not because they don't love or want to care for their children. They most likely do. Indeed, the image that best describes how I felt living at a long distance from my daughter was this: I walked around with a hole in my heart. It pained me more than I can ever say to be excluded from doing all the little things that make up parenting day-to-day. My own experience teaches me that some non-custodial parents probably give into or create distance between themselves and their children because they can't stand the pain of being separated from them. That sounds paradoxical--why cut off the connection you want and need?--but "disappearing" for this reason makes emotional sense to me. My situation has taught me a second lesson on this point. Staying in contact versus "disappearing" probably reflects how some non-custodial parents decide to safeguard their integrity and dignity when dealing with their former partner. Now, I don't mean to say that non-custodial parents who cease contact with their children lack integrity or dignity. Quite the contrary. It's probably the best way they know now to preserve their self-worth. I know that's how I've felt when I've contemplated leaving the town where my child now resides. Perhaps that's the case for other non-custodial parents who "disappear"? I hope my comments are useful to you. Thanks for opening the dialogue. monday on "Are Children Really Resilient?" http://practicecircles.com/home/forums/topic.php?id=2#post-5 Thu, 11 Feb 2010 17:40:55 +0000 monday 5@http://practicecircles.com/home/forums/ Hi KW, It looks like this forum is only you and me, or i don't know how to find other posts! I think each child (person) has there own reaction to the world. Resiliency to circumstances in life and how you endure difficulties comes from somewhere else not how your parents state of marriage was, it's too big of a human issue to be looked at from the parents marriage as the way you process the world, i want to believe it only contributes, but does not form you. Kids still have stuff to deal with even when parents are in stable marriages. Growing up is hard, certain circumstances do make it more complicated for some, but so many of us see and hear about children that have what seems like insurmountable situations thrust upon them like being an child orphan or parents lost to drug addiction. As a child I grew up in a neighborhood filled with holocaust survivors. This makes me think that it's all about how a person deals with adversity, not necessarily what the adversity is that is thrust upon them. I hope this makes sense :) Monday KW Mom on "Why do Dads disappear?" http://practicecircles.com/home/forums/topic.php?id=3#post-4 Wed, 10 Feb 2010 01:01:00 +0000 KW Mom 4@http://practicecircles.com/home/forums/ Fifteen years ago, I was somewhat relieved when my ex-husband was less than assertive about exercising his rights to visitation. I didn't insist that he see the children, nor did I do much to encourage it. Eventually, all contact dwindled to Christmas cards and Birthday cards. I now realize what a mistake I made in not actively facilitating my daughters' ongoing contact with their father. I failed to understand how their self-esteem would be impacted by perceived "abandonment' by the one man in their lives who was supposed to love them no matter what. KW Mom on "Why do Dads disappear?" http://practicecircles.com/home/forums/topic.php?id=3#post-3 Wed, 10 Feb 2010 00:47:41 +0000 KW Mom 3@http://practicecircles.com/home/forums/ A discussion of the phenomenon of Dads who drop out of their children's lives after a divorce. KW Mom on "Are Children Really Resilient?" http://practicecircles.com/home/forums/topic.php?id=2#post-2 Wed, 10 Feb 2010 00:31:43 +0000 KW Mom 2@http://practicecircles.com/home/forums/ Throughout my divorce, I heard that children were resilient and believed that mine would be fine. Nothing could be further from the truth. They suffered terribly, and they still have issues that can be traced back to a divorce that was final over 15 years ago. I would like to know how other parents have dealt with the aftereffects of divorce on children.